CNN Türk news editor in chief: 'Erdoğan is more like Yeltsin after August coup than Putin'

CNN Türk is a news channel, we are part of a large Turkish media company – Doğan Media Group, we are partners with Turner International. Normally we report news but on 15 of July we became part of the story. That's the reason probably you are here. It starts to be very usual for us to be part of the story. Maybe we should start with that – with the coup. I don't call this a coup attempt actually. I call it a failed coup, because an attempt is something less that happened on 15 July. On 15 July, we have seen tanks in the streets, jets in the air, soldiers in the streets. So, it was a coup, but it failed. This failed coup, in this building, became part of the story, first, because of the interview with the President Erdoğan in FaceTime. Second, because at one point this old building and the building next to it, where the newspapers are, were occupied by a group of soldiers. It was a very tense moment for us.

The whole exhort in the building lasted about 1,5 hours. Thankfully, nobody was injured here, but I was very afraid because the soldiers were with guns, we were nervous, tense. They were pointing the guns to all the staff, so the safety of the staff was very important. We did something quite clever, when the soldiers at the end forced us out of the newsroom, in the studio, we locked the vision mixer and the control, so they couldn't stop the pictures broadcast. One camera was showing the empty studio. Our CEO, who is also an experienced broadcaster, he had a wireless microphone so he could do commentary of the empted pictures of camera. Our website was on all the time and they were broadcasting pictures. They left the building but they were able to do it from outside, the website was live and they were showing what was going on here.

At one point, a wave of protesters came to this building, first in hundreds, then in thousands. The gates were all closed, they literally crushed through the gates and entered the building very angry, very determined to get the soldiers out. Again, at that point, I was very much worried because if the soldiers and this crowd would come face to face, there would be a bloodshed, no doubt about that. Because these soldiers had no chance but to fire upon the crowd. The police acted very cleverly, they acted like a baffle between the soldiers and the crowd. You have seen the stairs, the soldiers were on the top floor, the crowd was moving from the bottom up to the stairs. The police literally acted the baffle between the two for a long time. After a while, the soldiers came to a conclusion that they couldn't get out of this building and they were surrounded. They gave up their arms, the police took them to custody. Actually, they locked them in one of the rooms here because the crowd was so angry that they were attacking them, so we had to save them and locked them in the room. Once they were out of the site, the crowd lost their appetites, they began to dispel. Once the crowd was half out of the building, the police took soldiers away. Next door, in the newspaper part of this facility, because crowd came here and not to that building, the soldiers stayed in the building, the police had to intervene, they first fired tear gas into the building and then they literally intervened with guns, that was a real clash there. Actually, the commanding officer of that party was injured in that clash. So that's our story.

This failed coup, in this building, became part of the story, first, because of the interview with the President Erdoğan in FaceTime. Second, because at one point this old building and the building next to it, where the newspapers are, were occupied by a group of soldiers. Photo: screenshot of video

We also were covering that night from Moscow on different levels and now about victims in Ankara, people who suffered that night. We know from the first hands how the nation suffered this tragedy, how the nation is united, how they are talking about it. Now there's an investigation. How do you come at this story? Because there are some concerns that you fight against Gulen and organization, some influence people. We know that CNN is part of big corporation that stands for democracy and its values.

The so-called purge of the Gulen affiliates from the state mechanisms is a huge operation. Let me tell you my own involvement in this movement. I cover Gulen himself since 1985. When I first met him he was a sort of medium-level cleric, preaching in the mosques in Istanbul. And he started putting together these organizations. In 1999, we broadcast his taped instructions to his followers. That video to this state is first and the only proof of how he organize this infiltration into state mechanism. That's the only instance when we heard from his own mouth his instructions to his own people. 'Enter the wings of the state. Do whatever you can do but stay there. If you face resistance don't go back.' A very clear message. I personally knew that this mechanism, this movement infiltrated in the state mechanisms from various branches, starting more modestly and then further flourish.

Then we had 3-4 cases where we have seen how this movement was abusing that power, because up to a certain point they said – ok, what's wrong if people who love Gulen, who believe what he says, are also becoming judges, teachers, what's wrong with that. After a certain point, we started seeing how they abused this power. Couple of examples of that abuse, you probably have already heard, Ergenekon and Sledgehammer cases, when they used a network inside the police and judiciary to target the generals and the officers of the army.

We also started seeing how they were corrupting the public examinations in this country. We have a national exam system, if you to go to the public service you take that exam, and depending on your grades you are in or out. It is a very important mechanism. We have started seeing that they corrupt that system so that they could be able to put their own people into the system. And then came something that closed my heart – the assassination a friend of mine, an Armenian journalist in Istanbul, an Armenian activist. From the very beginning, we knew that somehow people in the state mechanisms were involved in the assassination. Then slowly and slowly we started realizing that police officers affiliated with Gulen organization were corrupting the investigation, they were planting false evidence, so that the investigation would run into dead end and the real culprits behind this would be concealed from the eyes. We knew that this organization was taking a very strong infiltrating. Still I have to admit that I didn't know, as well as many people, how well organized they were inside the army. We knew that they had affiliates in the lower ranks of the army and also in critical positions but the fact that they had colonels, generals affiliated this movement was new.

Obama administration do not want this issue right now. They have already enough on their plates, they would be much more happy the next administration to deal with that. At one point, of course, they have to decide on this and they know that if they refuse extradition, relations with Turkey will take a very bad turn, that much they know. Photo: sabah.com.tr

What do you think about Gulen's extradition to Turkey? Do you have any difficulties with your American colleagues?

They are very much involved in their own troubles, the elections. Actually, right now the Gulen case is also affected by the presidential campaign or the election period because Obama administration do not want this issue right now. They have already enough on their plates, they would be much more happy the next administration to deal with that. At one point, of course, they have to decide on this and they know that if they refuse extradition, relations with Turkey will take a very bad turn, that much they know. The importance of the extradition, I think, is not simply legal but also psychological, because right now we know that some of the key people arrested are resisting, they don't talk to the public prosecutors, because they think that somehow they can still survive. The fact that Gulen is still in America, gives them false security. If he is taken into custody, arrested, for three days, the climate here will change considerably.

A question from Realnoe Vremya: We know that a turning point on 15-26 July was the appearance of the President Erdoğan on live at CCN Türk. Why CNN Türk? How to achieve so that a president called you back? Because, Erdoğan, as well as Putin, is the great leader of his people, ordinary jouranalists cannot reach him.

You know these comparisons between Putin and Erdoğan. After 15 July, I had another comparison. At that moment, Erdoğan was more like Yeltsin after the august coup in Moscow. At that time, I was working in London for BBC world service. I remember how your Gorbachov told the world that he had to listen to BBC world service on a small radio to follow what was happening in Moscow from Crimea.

In desperate times, even the strongest leaders take these desperate measures, so I don't think one should be surprised that Erdoğan has also taken extraordinary measures. The fact that an Ankara bureau chief was able to reach him is not very surprising to us because we are in constant touch with his people, we do talk to these people, we are not out of their reach. In the past two years or so, the government and Erdoğan had problems with CNN Türk, we didn't have problems with them but they had problems with us. They refused to appear on CNN Türk, they never came to our programmes, but we were able to talk to them behind the doors. That night the same thing happened. Ankara chief, she was talking to Erdoğan's people, but also to the ministries in the government. Before Erdoğan we had the prime minister and several other ministries on air that night. Erdoğan was big scoop, but still we had other on air. She was explaining on that short video that they tried to reach out by various different ways, you know he was not in Ankara. They made a statement to local press actually, but local press could not put it broadcasted. So, at one point when she said to them that nobody saw that periscope message and whether they would like to appear on CNN Türk, they said ok, let's do it.

Afterwards many people asked me, especially in foreign media, how we decided to do this, implying how we took the risk, because, after all, if the coup had succeeded we probably had been punished for this act. My answer is – we haven't decided, it was there, it happened. Photo: sonhaber.tv

They came back to us, I was in a control room, she was in Ankara, literally, being under the table, doing the telephone call and then coming up and doing the commentary. At one point we heard her on the screen, saying the president will be with us in a moment. That's how I learnt that the interview was coming. Afterwards many people asked me, especially in foreign media, how we decided to do this, implying how we took the risk, because, after all, if the coup had succeeded we probably had been punished for this act. My answer is – we haven't decided, it was there, it happened. Whether they chose CNN Türk deliberately, I don't know. But they had an option of appearing on several tv channels that were much closer to them, but now looking back they also accept one basic fact, which is also very important for us. The fact that they appeared on CNN had much more impact than appearing on state tv or on a pro-government channel, because people talk ok if a channel like CNN Türk, which has suffered from government. Even if they are having them, then there should be real, there wouldn't be a false play there.

The Gulenism is everywhere. Why does it have so much influence? When did it start?

His origins are from eastern part of Turkey. Actually it is related to common history. Because his first public appearance, he is from small provincial town in eastern Antalya, is a thunder of anticommunist association in that town, which at that time was a product of a Cold War, with considerable state support against the Soviet threat during the Cold War. That's how he started his career. Then he moved to İzmir on the Aegean cost. He was a very affective preacher. I've seen him preaching in the mosque. You know these Televangelists, that calibre. He started bringing people together around certain charitable causes mainly by building schools, building hostels for students and building prep schools. That was the basis of his organisation. Then he also started attracting businesspeople. And they established a network of businesses and a very strong network of civil society organisations. Hundreds of associations, unions of business people, unions of everything across the country and abroad. Now they appear very strong, widespread, you have to calculate this all thing started in the early 80s. There is a history of 35 years and very constant attempt, a single-minded strategy are behind it. If you work on a project for 35 years, it becomes something. I don't believe there are secret forces behind him.

Do you think that a single person even being a super genius can do that?

I don't think he is a super genius person. He believes in that mission. And he was able to organise these people. He was able to touch the right button to organise these people. I've seen meetings of his followers in a small Antalyan town and how they were organising this thing. I was in one of them. They were crying to find funds for their school in Malaysia. A small town in the east of Istanbul. Most of businesspeople there were small and medium enterprises, small-sized merchants. They were able to organise these people to support a school that would operate 6-7,000 km afar in Malaysia.

Some of the structures they created are very clever. For instance, I've always told why these students are coming from all these foreign countries where they have schools, coming here singing Turkish folk songs. It is costly. What is the purpose? Then I realised it. All these supporters who gave money to these schools, it will be much more costly to take them out to these schools. They were bringing ten or twenty students from every country and showing them to their supporters and people who really paid money and say 'That's why you have to give more'. We are teaching his people to be good students, learn Turkish, love Turks. That's why you have to give more. And they were giving. It took me quite a while to understand why it was happening. It was not a magic. That was a very simple marketing mechanism. To ask for money, you have to show them something. What are you going to show them? You are going to show them 20 bright kids coming here in their old folk dresses and singing happy Turkish songs? Perfect. And it worked. It worked for almost ten years.

The Gülen school was a golden key into that country for that gold Turkish diplomats and businesspeople. That's how it served Turkish interests. And it really served. Photo: rferl.org

I don't know whether the school network served other purposes. I mean it definitely served the Turkish interests. For instance, before the Gülen opening started in Africa, there were about 19 Turkish embassies, and mostly in northern African countries. In Black Africa, there was almost no one. So the Gülen schools moved to Africa, to Black Africa, then Turkish businesspeople followed, then Turkish diplomats followed. In most of the cases, for the Turkish diplomats who went there for the first time, the Gülen schools were the only point of contact. Can you imagine? You have a school where the ministries of the country were sending their children, the government officials were sending their children because they taught English, etc. That was a golden key into that country for that gold Turkish diplomats and businesspeople. That's how it served Turkish interests. And it really served.

By the way, that's also what happened in Central Asian republics, in the Balkans, Caucasian countries. In certain countries, these schools served another purpose. In Pakistan, for instance, they were seen as the perfect alternative to hotbeds of Taliban and Al-Qaeda. They were educating their children there. There were about ten or more grand schools in Pakistan at that point. I think in 2008 or so, New York Times published a series of articles praising how Gülen schools were the perfect tool against the radical Taliban education in a country like Pakistan.

You are saying it is like a more philosophy. It is a new philosophy that cleans our minds.

Look, this was a stratified organisation. It is a system of what we call 'new-age Talibans'. At the bottom, it was a religious community, of course. Then there was another layer – the organisational layer: schools, businesses, civil society organisations, unions. Then there is a third layer: that's the secret layer. That's the infiltration into the states. These three levels coexisted. Coming back to the investigation, one big difficulty is, of course, to make a distinction between these three levels. I'm not going to put all the believers to jail. I don't think this is feasible. What am I going to do with the organisational level? Is it enough if you destroyed the organisation? Or is it necessary to punish it? And then the infiltration level, we have to get them out of the state. But how are you going to deal with the consequences?

He presented himself also as a saver. I am sure there are thousands of people who simply followed him as a religious guide. There are also thousands of people who believed he was a saver, some secret power. He himself presented that person. He was saying that he was having the Prophet in his dreams, that he communicating with them, that he was preordained to do teams. You are also familiar with this kind of people. They exist. And they can be very influential.

I interviewed him quite a time ago. And my reason is very simple: either my calculation or naturally, he doesn't tell the truth. He doesn't engage with you, he doesn't answer any questions. Photo: neweurope.eu

In Turkey, Gülen is considered to be a terrorist. And his organisation is terrorist. If he is in Turkey, and you have an opportunity to interview him in prison. Will you interview him?

I personally gave up. I interviewed him quite a time ago. And my reason is very simple: he doesn't tell the truth. We deal with many people who don't tell the truth. He doesn't engage with you, he doesn't answer any questions. Take the interviews he gave in the last two years. Put them back to back. You will see he is repeating the same thing. Nothing changes. The only thing that changes is the one who poses the questions. His answers are all the same. Basically, they are like: 'I am not involved in these things'.

When he said it after the coup was broadcasted everywhere.

Of course, they were sold everywhere after the coup. When all these court cases happened, Seldgehammer, Ergenekon, Hrantin's assassination, the court against Kurdish civilian politicians we knew they were investigated by the Gülen affiliates in the police and investigation. And these are three-four-year-old stories. He gave the same answer. I posed the same question to him in 2011. He said: 'I don't know. I have nothing to say about this. These are not my people'. Come on. If I could see one trace of engaging with the reality, I would be very happy to interview him. But right now you know if they are trained interrogations techniques. One thing that we teach in the interrogation techniques is that you are going to repeat the same answer. That's the only way you can resist. Once you start going into details, you will lose the game. When I look at leaks of the investigation so far, I see two types of questions. One type is' I am involved in the coup plot. I did that but I am not a Gulenist'. The second type is 'I am a Gulenist. I studied in their schools. I adore the Hoca. I am not involved in the coup'. A few of them would say 'Yes, I am Gulenist. And I am involved in the coup', but only a few. We have not seen yet the whole evidence.

If you get an exclusive interview with Gülen, you will be broadcasted nationwide, worldwide.

I would not do it.

Or your company would not do it?

We had interviewed him in the past. We had interviewed several people involved in this organisation. We even interviewed police officers. When I saw these interviews, I decided not to do further. It is like talking to a wall. Why do you do the interview? An interview is like a tangle. You ask questions, but the other one also should somehow engage. Otherwise, you don't dance.

I was asking about the ratings.

I don't care about the ratings. I really don't care about the ratings. I'm sure there would be people who would chase this kind of rating.

As for your answer to an interview with Gülen. Would not you talk to him for any professional reasons because you wanted something new or because you are a citizen of Turkey?

It would be an illegal issue. It would be directly aiding and backing and doing a propaganda of the terrorist organisation. I said I gave up interviewing him before the coup because he was not engaged with the others.